Because it's fun. Why else?

June 9th, 2009 1:06 am

I got this note today.

I read your blog and noticed you promised the frostii team to do mouryou no hako. I also noticed that your schedule is quite busy and you probably don’t really want to translate MnH. This is why I contacted you. #********(channel name masked) is currently acquiring the BD for MnH and we will sub it, regardless of whether or not YOU decide to sub it. You must understand that this is our first project and we are unable to drop it. On the other hand, if frostii does this show, our group may not receive the popularity it might deserve due to a group with a higher rep – our download counts are sure to drop.

Which gives me a good chance to talk about why I torture myself so much and devote so much of my time to fansubbing.

First of all, I like anime.  I’m not crazy about anime like some people I’ve seen.

Then, J→E translation is something I’ve been doing for such a long time, it’s almost natural part of me.  My first translation attempt was around 17 years ago, first couple chapters of Record of Lodoss War.  I just wanted to share what I was reading with friends.  That desire is what got me into fansubbing.

Once I started fansubbing, I got hooked to the process of fansubbing itself.  I like working with all the anime geeks.  I like working with videos.  I like working with fonts and such.  And it gives me some excuse to build web pages and such here and there.

But, really, I wouldn’t have continued for 6+ years without all the fun people I’ve worked with.  (I have yet to meet a sigle one of them.  That should change at one point…)

Now, to respond to the guy who messaged me:

We will also go ahead with our project, regardless of your project status.  If anything, you should have advantage over us, for we know we will take a late start.  I’m trying to finish some of my shows before I pick up a new show (namely K-On, Ippo, and Black Jack).  So you have definite head start.  We want to do it because there are so may people in Frostii who are so eager to do it themselves, that they’re willing to put up with the wait.

And, on the assumption that I probably don’t want to translate MnH: yes, but no.  It’s really not the type of the show I would pick up myself.  But, since the start of Frostii, I’ve done all the stuff I wanted to do (Nodame, Black Jack, Ippo, Lupin, K-On!).  Now I want to give back to the group.  It’ll still be fun for me.  And when people tell me that it’s not an easy show to translate, I can’t turn down the challenge.

Go on, do your own thing.  We will do ours.  And, FYI, I won’t be starting my translation until I come back from Japan next month.

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19 Comments

  • kaede says:

    For this all I can say: all hail Frostii!
    I have an idea who this group may be, but that is not the matter. I just wanted to share my thoughts about this with you: I am really glad that you’ll sub MnH. I don’t know which sub I will pick and archive, but I think it is not fair to ask someone to drop a show just because one has started it already, first show or whatever. This request made me think about that other group a bit worse and better of you. Again, I am really happy that you did not chose to drop just because other subbers requested it.
    Have a nice day!


  • pantsu says:

    I don’t share your interpretation, kaede.

    There are two ways to interpret their message:
    “Drop it because we’re already doing it”, and
    “You seem to be cho-busy, so I just want to let you know this show isn’t going unnoticed.”

    I think it’s the latter. Rather than an attempt to become the only choice, it seems to me that the intention was to be considerate, that perhaps Frostii picked this show up because it seems to have slipped under the radar (since they picked it up just now, rather than when it was airing).

    I believe the “You must understand that this is our first project and we are unable to drop it” line is supposed to say, “we would drop it since Frostii picked it up, but we can’t because it’s our first project”. That line is an explanation of the previous statement – “and we will sub it, regardless of whether or not YOU decide to sub it”.

    The final line seems to be additional rationalization (“if you did pick up for that reason, please remember that you will likely overshadow us”). If my interpretation is correct, then perhaps the note could have been worded better.

    It all depends on the tone in which it is read.


  • Jarin says:

    Well, their very last line is kinda stupid: “our download counts are sure to drop.” It showed that they do really care about download numbers more than just doing it for the love of the show as why the Frostii team decided to pick it up! Also, if I was the other group leader and it came to my attention that another group plans to do the same show, specially with a translator like Sylf, I would have suggested a joint instead of asking them not to do it!


  • kaede says:

    Yes, you are right, I did not intend to be offensive in any way. So I am apologizing, if I did hurt the feelings of someone, it was not my intention. But indeed I am glad that Frostii won’t drop because of a request like this. Whichever way you interpret the note. :)


  • pantsu says:

    >specially with a translator like Sylf, I would have suggested a joint instead of asking them not to do it!
    I don’t know. I don’t think Frostii would accept, considering the group mentioned is a new group (“first project”).

    >It showed that they do really care about download numbers more than just doing it for the love of the show
    Spending a lot of time and being primarily overlooked is not a nice feeling, whether you love the show or not.

    Everyone cares about download numbers, and I don’t think the main reason is popularity. You just want as many people as possible to watch your release – your hard work. Or I don’t know, maybe there are fansubbers who would be content with just subbing and keeping it to themselves. I, for one, take pleasure in knowing I contributed noticeably.


  • metamorphic says:

    Fansubbing isn’t some charity, so to grovel and plead someone to stop subbing simply because you’re afraid of a little competition is completely pathetic, not to mention asinine. Competition is the only way to proceed and progress; if you do not understand this, then you have no understanding of how fansubbing, and indeed the world itself, works. Every single quality group today started out as complete unknowns, and it’s due to their perseverance, hard work and dedication, that they are where they are today — it’s because, yes, it was actually merited.

    If your work gets overlooked, it’s because your work clearly wasn’t on par with a better release — it’s time to come to terms with that. And if you care about download numbers so much and if you’re under the mistaken impression that reputation is supposedly concurrent with “download numbers,” then why not work for a better-known or more “reputable” group? Trust me, there are several old and “reputable” groups which are in dire need of staff, so if you think your work merits any “attention”, help them out instead of trying the proverbial “guilt trip” — it’s getting stale.


  • sufo says:

    Metamorphic, if that’s how you feel about fansubbing, then i fear you have grasped the wrong end of the stick. I thought it was the goal of fansubbers to provide quality subs of shows that need them. “Competition” between quality groups is merely a waste of resources – there are plenty of shows out there that need good quality treatment, why have two groups doing the same show? I don’t think this guy’s request is so unreasonable, and no matter how you look at it it’s neither grovelling, pleading or a “guilt trip”. At worst it was an error on their part to expect that a fair request (to which i’m sure the answer could have been “no” without much love lost between either of the parties) would suffer anything less than being branded around in public, a move that was sure to encourage the likes of you to make arrogant, disparaging comments.

    Also, to suggest that a groups reputation and download numbers show no correlation is just plain retarded. Sure there are some shit groups that get plenty of dls, but these can be mainly attributed to the speed of release. In other cases, whatever is considered to be the best release *generally* will receive the most dls, and hence, the most attention. Now, we have yet to see what said group is capable of, they may be great, they may be shit (in which case this rant is somewhat less applicable) but either way, your response was unwarranted and only serves to make you look like a bit of a cunt. So a new group asked if perhaps they could be cut some slack, so what.


  • metamorphic says:

    @sufo
    You clearly seem to be quite adept at twisting words and ignoring other points simply in order to suit your own arguments, aren’t you? Since you seem to be woefully unaware of any sort of formalized principles whatsoever, I had tried to enlighten you (or your other friends hiding behind an alias, assuming that it isn’t you, of course) that competition, my friend, is part and parcel of reality, and that only through solid competition can one’s development and a model of perfection be achieved. We improve ourselves, and as a result, others, though competition — this has always stood true against the many vicissitudes of time. Why are you against others willing to provide a better work, and what makes you think yours is so apparently good (“quality”, in your words) in the first place? No fansub, my friend, can be termed as “quality”, especially when said fansub does not even have any actual competition to rival it! Without competition, it would simply remain as a lazy, wasteful blob that does not wish to push itself forward — a relic, in other terms.

    Wherever there is imperfection, competition will surface — only then would one progress — that is how the fansub groups of lore have come so far. It is, therefore, you, my friend, who has no understanding of what true progress entails.

    And insofar as Frostii is concerned, we have many able staff and as such working on one project bears no burden on us working on several other projects. If one wishes to help us and work on say a classic or untranslated show, we have always been open to such proposals, provided that they are able individuals. Why not help the older groups on their projects, many of which are far less known than Mouryou — such as Anime-Keep’s Mahoujin Guru Guru — if one wishes to be a purveyor of chivalry?

    sufo :
    In other cases, whatever is considered to be the best release *generally* will receive the most dls, and hence, the most attention.”

    You clearly haven’t been around the block much, have you? Unless you are intentionally trolling, this is the most ignorant and laughable claim that I have ever heard. I rest my case.


  • sufo says:

    Sigh, you clearly didn’t absorb my point that two potentially good fansubs of the same show is merely a waste of resources. I know that sadly it is the way of fansubbing these days that such notions have been abandoned, but in the past it seems there was a sense of community, of the scene working together to get shows done. This group have clearly set their hearts on doing this show… frostii, perhaps, could have waited to see if the release was “up to par” so to speak, and if not, then proceeded to sub it (it’s hardly as though there’s any need for speedy release for a show that finished airing months ago).

    And that’s another thing, there absolutely _is_ an accepted level of quality – it may not be concretely quantifiable, but people know a good sub from a bad one, and you most certainly don’t need… another sub… of the _same_ show to be able to gauge that. There are plenty of excellent groups whose very founding principles include not subbing shows that have already been done. Are you suggesting that there is _no way_ of us knowing how good their sub is? As eloquent as you are “my friend”, logic, clearly, is not your forté. It’s not as though fansubbing is still locked in its teething infancy – it’s had plenty of refinement, and while competition between groups is indeed one of the things that keeps standards up, this “battle” you seem so fond of doesn’t need to be waged on the same show. Believe it or not, fansubbing is _not_ the corporate world, people don’t get paid, and in my experience it’s not locked in this hyper-competitive, almost Nietzschean state of struggle and self-overcoming. Please don’t arrogantly sound off about how “this is what happens in the real world.” As i understand it, fansubbing is meant to be a fun, collaborative effort between friends… not some paradigm of the “real” world with all its harshness and backstabbing. But perhaps you’re right, and I’m the one who’s being naive… i guess i can only comment on my own motivations.

    With regards to this new group helping other, more established groups out with projects – i think it was pantsu that pointed out that new groups carry very little weight in terms of reputation and respect, and that their offers might well be rejected. In fact you say yourself “insofar as Frostii is concerned, we have many able staff and as such working on one project bears no burden on us working on several other projects” so surely it should be frostii with its nigh limitless resources who should (and could) help out on these projects. As you say, you can pick up anything at little detrimental effect to yourselves – unlike a small startup group that had set their hearts on a first project, one that might define their character, and busted their asses to get the resources in place. I did not realise when first reading your post that you were, in fact, a member of frostii. This makes your comment _even more_ offensive. It’s very, very easy to pontificate about the merits of “competition” and the like when you’re sitting pretty on the side that clearly has the advantage. What you are doing at best amounts to silly internet bullying, and at worst is a directed attempt to sap the fun out of fansubbing for others by engaging in a completely unfairly handicapped battle while laughing at, and ridiculing the intimidated opponent. I’m sure in real life you’re a nice guy, but it’s sad that you feel it necessary to present this unpleasant side of you nature to people who probably respected you, or at least the establishment you represent.


  • sufo says:

    and lol@walls of text getting longer each time. I expect more, or nothing at all :3


  • pantsu says:

    @metamorphic: “You clearly seem to be quite adept at twisting words and ignoring other points simply in order to suit your own arguments, aren’t you?”

    That’s exactly what you did to MY response.You didn’t really counter my arguments, you merely provided your own interpretation and seemingly decided that yours is the correct one (that they’re “groveling and pleading someone to stop subbing simply because they’re afraid of a little competition”)… you either completely ignored what I said, or… yup, twisted my words. In either case, you demonstrate amusing hypocrisy. :)

    “If your work gets overlooked, it’s because your work clearly wasn’t on par with a better release — it’s time to come to terms with that.”
    Not really. Most leechers go with the famous names, not necessarily the better releases. Sometimes they even go with the bigger file sizes.

    Your post was amazingly rude (many rude assumptions, “superior” tone), and IMO, your opinion of fansubbers is very wrong. In my experience, many fansubbers better themselves because they’re interested in what they do. They like what they do, so they expand on their knowledge and abilities, regardless of competition. This is also a strong driving force behind many open source projects.

    Unlike corporations, which have no reason to improve if they have no competition, I, and many other fansubbers, do. We improve because we like what we do – it interests us, so we expand on our knowledge and skills. We improve because we like contributing free subs that others can enjoy. The primary drive, at least for me, is not competition.

    You say sufo doesn’t know how the world works if he thinks competition is unnecessary. Perhaps it is you who doesn’t? Your “equation” is incomplete. When “working for free”, other factors come into play that can replace and even surpass the motivation provided by competition.

    Competition still contributes to improvement, but as sufo said, this “battle” does not have to be waged on the same show. Fansubbers, at the core, are leechers, and strive to surpass the quality offered by other groups — even on shows they don’t sub. You watch other releases, and then are motivated by a high quality release to improve yours further. Karaoke, typesetting, non-literal translations, timing and encoding are all things that people can compete against each other on, even if they sub different shows.

    The perfect karaoke, the perfect sign TS, the perfect font choices, perfectly placing notes (styling them, or choosing whether it’s more appropriate to provide them externally in this case). A translation that makes gags sound right, that removes the necessity for some notes, that does not sound robotic, that makes sense to somebody who knows no Japanese and has just started watching anime. Flawless timing – making the right choices on splitting lines, deciding whether you should time “un”s or not, adding fades when the scene fades in/out, etc. The perfect encode – sharpness which looks just right, doesn’t bother you in motion. An artifact-free encode. An encode that preserves all detail or even restores faint detail, flawless IVTC, etc.

    “Why not help the older groups on their projects, many of which are far less known than Mouryou — such as Anime-Keep’s Mahoujin Guru Guru — if one wishes to be a purveyor of chivalry?”

    I quote, from the note in the blog post: “You must understand that this is our first project and we are unable to drop it.”
    There may also be other reasons, such as staff which feels strongly about this project, or having already completed a significant amount of work.


  • metamorphic says:

    Instead of going on with your pointless personal attacks and childish diatribes, please answer this question, which you seem to have conveniently overlooked: “Why are you against others willing to provide a better work, and what makes you think yours is so apparently good (”quality”, in your words) in the first place?”

    Why shouldn’t the fans of this show get the best possible release, and why should they made to live with some inferior release that doesn’t do justice to it? Just because your group wants more download numbers doesn’t mean you can hold people to ransom. Cool ethics there bro. Your shameless groveling won’t get you more download numbers.

    Oh yeah, and the level of so-called “quality” in this other group’s work is very much below par and doesn’t do justice to this show whatsoever. So we’re gonna sub it, and you better get used to the download quotas, lol. Oh, and by the way, if you really are fansubbers and/or members of Norikumi, as your comments show, don’t hide behind secondary aliases bros — it won’t get you guys more download numbers. You people sicken me.


  • Jarin says:

    Well back to topic. To be honest, some Frostii staff thought of doing this and asked Sylf to translate only because there was no sub out there. Now that the other group said they will do, though we don’t know how stable their staff are now since their former translator left, I think Frostii staff have lost their main reason to sub this show and should just want to see how good the release is. Based on that, they should do another better release or just pick something else ^_^;
    That’s my opinion guys, I hope you consider it all those involved in Mouyrou project. I do want to see the show as much as any of you, so let’s wait a little more and see!


  • sufo says:

    Interesting that you think the only people who would comment in defence of the new group would be its own members. While _i_ am personally acquainted with some of the members of said group, i honestly have no idea who pantsu is… i guess just someone else who’s sick of some the nastier attitudes that seem to have become prevalent within the scene. And this is where i leave the issue to rest in my mind… this is the internet, metamorphic is no more likely to say “Gah, you know what, maybe i was a little harsh… maybe i _have_ somewhat lost focus of what fansubbing for fun as all about” (and if you’ve been in the scene for a long time, as you posts suggest, then that’s _absolutely_ justified – i’m _sure_ it happens to some extent to everyone) as Sylf is to say “Ick, you know what, maybe pasting internal affairs on a public blog wasn’t the _best_ idea, i guess i could have just replied directly with a simple ‘no’.”

    Anyway, look, you’re right metamorphic, some of my comments did carry a slightly personal twinge… i’m sorry about that, and in the interest of producing a fair, cogent argument it was a bad idea. But you must realise that some of your comments really appeared to me to be the embodiment of some of the worst aspects of fansubbing in my mind – this process of petty one-upmanship that is such a breeding ground for trolls and the like. I’m sure that if we ever meet in the future, we’ll be able to clear the air – and perhaps even (heaven forbid) get on. But in this circumstance, i just couldn’t let your comments slide. Peace and love.


  • metamorphic says:

    Cool troll there bro. Your personal attacks and habit of avoiding questions are very charming indeed and are sure to endure you to your fellow failsub trolls. Troll harder next time.


  • sufo says:

    Well, it’s a shame you think i’m trolling – but i guess not that surprising given the cynicism you’ve displayed up to this point. Is it so hard to believe that someone might genuinely hold opinions such as my own? I didn’t think i was avoiding questions. I suppose i didn’t directly answer this:

    “Why are you against others willing to provide a better work, and what makes you think yours is so apparently good (”quality”, in your words) in the first place?”

    but i kind of figured you’d be able to glean my probable response from what i’d said previously. Clearly you didn’t, so i suppose i can spell it out. I have absolutely no problem with people providing “better work.” If you remember, i previously said:

    “frostii, perhaps, could have waited to see if the release was “up to par” so to speak, and if not, then proceeded to sub it”

    I feel this statement _absolutely_ allows for the best sub to be produced and at minimal wastage of resources. It’s such a shame that nowadays anyone who argues from the side of reason and moderation is branded a troll… but perhaps it _is_ such a rare thing that it must be looked upon with suspicious eyes. Anyway, i think this has escalated way past what the topic deserves (obv partly my fault, i’ve always been to argumentative for my own good lol) All i wanted was for you to perhaps rethink your opinions on the matter – this is clearly not gonna happen, and i’ll leave it at that. If you do (and you probably will) sub the show, good luck, and i hope the fans get what they deserve.


  • pantsu says:

    “You people sicken me.”
    Haha, oh wow.

    In response to your first paragraph, I “conveniently overlooked” that question because I’m not a member of Norikumi (at least Sylf had the decency to censor the group name). This is one of the rude assumptions I mentioned in my previous post. I chose not to specifically mention it until now because I wasn’t completely sure whether you actually made that assumption.

    “Why shouldn’t the fans of this show get the best possible release, and why should they made to live with some inferior release that doesn’t do justice to it?”
    “Oh yeah, and the level of so-called “quality” in this other group’s work is very much below par and doesn’t do justice to this show whatsoever.”
    Aren’t you cocky?

    I’m speechless. You’re so rude, it’s just incredible. Frankly, I’m confident an outsider would view you as the troll, rather than sufo and I. You are the one who chose to ignore the arguments presented by others. In fact, your first post and main points completely ignore my first post. I could comment on the rest of what you said, but you’re likely to just say I’m “going on with my pointless personal attacks and childish diatribes”. You are the embodiment of everything I despise in the fansubbing scene.

    I’m also going to take my leave now, like sufo, because I have zero faith that you’ll start behaving more respectfully, or even take into consideration the opinion of anyone other than yourself… but not before saying this: I will never, ever again wait for a Frostii release. You’re probably going to say you don’t care, but consider this: it’s likely most of your fanbase will be filled with the same disgust I’m feeling right now, should they see this side of you.

    And Sylf, the WYSIWYG editor is messed up =\


  • metamorphic says:

    Nice try there with the lies and twisting of statements, fake alias and the personal attacks, failsub troll. Interesting to see that instead of actually raising any of our points, you resort to making pejorative, derogatory and fabricative statements, to bring attention away from any points that have been made in the article and the laughable failsub tenets (e.g. “download counts”) that you follow. You shall never be able to stifle progress, competition and the pursuit of perfection, so it is indeed not surprising in the slightest that you would need to resort to such petty measures, as they are your only form of reprieve and they show your real characters.


  • Sylf says:

    I’m going to go ahead and close the comments for this post. I thought people might come to more civil conclusion, but it looks like some people only wants to keep pouring oil on the frame. This type of discussion was not what I wanted to see out of this. Because I’ve mentioned picking up Mouryou in this blog before, and this type of original query can lead to some speculation (sometimes started by parties close to the our or other team) that we may change our mind. And that leads to people start asking us if we’re still doing or not.

    With this post, I just wanted to make a clear statement that we were still intending to continue with the project. And I had my reasons why I want to continue, which seems largely ignored.

    Metamorphic, if you think they are trolls, then please don’t feed them. Don’t try to put your last words. Chill out, and make statements through your work. Or start your own blog.


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